Let me ask you this then John. How punchy is it when using CMY for dark colors vs the 575? Also, how was the 575 zoomed when making the comparison, meaning was it matching size, smaller, or larger?

The size thing is really most important, because if the DS 300 is as bright as a smaller size DS 575, then I am impressed. Same size, ok, a little bit. If it is the same as a larger size DS 575, then I am not impressed at all, because you are getting larger coverage with the 575 then.

Color should be really interesting, especially since the 300 has a higher color temperature. With that, it will lose more with red and amber colors then the 575 will. Remember, the 'brightest' color temperature is around 4500K which is more or less pure white. With movers, they are sometimes perceived brighter then conventionals lamped at 3200K or 3050K thanks to the higher color temperature. However, when color is added, it becomes the great equalizer.

I totally agree with all of you. while most of the rig i use is robe (which if i remember correctly was partnered up with elation for a while right?) We just added a whole bunch of ds250 for our rental department and everyone loves them and have never had any technical problems at all. the only problem i can see and hopefully it will be eliminated in the near future is that out of all the tech riders i have seen not once have i seen elation. But we throw them in there anyway and have had no complaints

yes i believe we were partnered with robe for the active series of scanners we had. not 100% but john can confirm this.

The great debate: Who's Better; Martin or Elation?

If you want to go by reliability, name, popularity; then Martin tops the list. BUT, the world of lighting doesn't live off who has better gear, because it's all different.

I used to volunteer at a church that had MAC2000 profiles, and VL2402 washes, among other misc MAC fixtures located around the venue; and a GrandMA desk. They chose Martin for their reliability; same for VL. They put on massive conferences & live album recordings, always had Martin & VL gear - no Robe, HES, Elation, DTS, or any other brand. Why? Because they've had a great experience with their products

I now work at a production house with HES Cybers, IBeams, Studio Colours/Spots and some VL3k's. Why? Because that's the demographic in the area. There are no rock shows, touring groups; but mainly smaller shows, and corporate gigs. There are the occasional "big" shows, but they usually tour with their stuff, or get it from a bigger production house.

Then you can look at price basis' as to where a MAC250 Entour is about $28, while a DS250 is $17 - the obvious price difference is that Elation is building a name for themselves; while Martin has been out since the early 90's, has been established and made a name for themselves, and know that their products are going to be put on bid's and lists for people to purchase.

Martin has their demographic, VL has their demographic, HES doesn't make the big movers, but the XSpot, Beams & other fixtures have their demographic, and same thing for Robe, Coemar & Elation. You use whatever you "prefer" - or if you tour, you use what's available.

So no offence to anybody; but you have no argument when you say "this light is better than that light" or "this brand is better than that brand" - Unless you've tried every single 1200w fixture, every 700, 575, 250, LED, whatever you won't know what's best to you. I prefer Martin and love my Technobeams, but have to work with HES & VL because it's available. A moving light is a moving light - they have lamps, colors, gobos and effects. In the end, they're all made in China.

My two cents.

To above, I am afraid some of your statements are sadly mistaken. First, I have tried just about every mover and console out there, it is the nature of my business that I work in. So while my experiences might not be the same as the next guy, they are genuine none the less.

Demographics have a lot to do with what you use/own/rent. I will agree to that much. After that, it is a free for all. Some days I feel like using a Mac 700 over a Power Spot 700, just because I can. However, whenever I can, I use VL. As for consoles, there are days I will take a Hog 3, some a GrandMA, still others a Jands Vista, in theatre, I use a lot of ETC, and I am currently looking into buying for myself an ETC Ion thanks to its small, powerful frame. For someone looking to rent and/or purchase, you want to get the most for your money. That lies with Elation right now. I am simply at a point which I can pick and choose what I want for my larger shows.

HES makes the biggest 'mover' if you can call it that. It is the ShowGun, 2000w discharge lamp with gobos and a ring of LEDs to boot. I don't count Syncrolites because they really aren't movers, just giant moving spot lights in my eyes. If you want, I can state my opinions on the x.Spot, which aren't positive. Also, the Studio line is very old at this point, but won't be updated because High End is just that now, High End.

The statement that everything is made in China is also false. VL is made in America, Texas to be exact. This is why they are referred to as Texans by some. Some of Elation's products are made in Europe, like the Impression. Martin is made in Sweden. ETC is also made in America. HES is USA as well I believe. Jands comes from down under. Coemar is Italy.

If you have truly been inside these fixtures, you will know that Martin has a lot of extra stuff inside that they don't need. They are also a pain to pull apart thanks to random PC boards everywhere. They also still use ribbon strips for connectors, which is the cause for a lot of the problems in them. They just come lose from traveling and rattling around in the backs if trucks. This is something left over from their DJ days.

Hi Serra,
RSLX.. thanks for your input. That's what I was saying on my previose post.. Once you use a lighting fixture.. you can say what you like and what you don't like.. I've used a few top brand fixtures that I thought were going to be great but didn't impress me after I used them. You have to really use them to see how they work and respond to your needs.

Serra,
Good questions.. You can see that the 575 has a warmer color temp, but at that 30' distance there was not much of a difference.. the DS300 punched through all the colors just as good as the 575. Also the room I was in was dark but not completely blacked out, so I was working with some ambient light comming in.
I zoomed the 575 to be 22 degrees just like the 300 becuase the 575 can zoom down to 15 degrees.
Remember its still a 300W lamp..575 lamp will be brighter in lumens..It just apears to be as bright as a 575.

Again at farther distances you don't really want 22 degrees.. so when it comes to the 300 we can't compare it to a 575 becuase the 575 wins.. .but we are comparing to most 250's in the market for a few reasons.

1.. because its brighter than any 250 similar to 575.
2.. has a bigger beam angle than most 250's
3.. has cmy color mixing. I don't know what 250 has this right now.
4.. has Iris..I don't know what 250.
5.. 2 prisms effects
6.. frost filter - yet another reason the 300 is exiting.. more light output when you add the frost filter for wash effect.

Oh and size.. the 300 is about 1" bigger and chubbier than the Design Spot 250.. alot smaller than a 575 moving head.

Jingles.. Here's a bit of history on Elation Robe.
in 2001 Elation imported Robe products with the Elation brand name. this is when Elation name in moving heads got started.
Color Spot and Wash 250, Color Spot and Wash 575, Vision 250, Vision 575.
By the end of 2003 Elation started and owned Robe America. Where the products mentioned above were branded both Elation and Robe at the same time.. You'll still find some fixtures like this.
In 2005 Elation sold Robe America to Robe which is in the Zcech replubic where they manufacture all there products.
This is one reason why on the manufacturer side we can't say this company is better than that company..
Coemar also used to distribute the Color Spot 250 from Robe, and Coemar used to distribute Martin Product before Martin became Martin.

Best regards,

thanks for the piece of history! appreaciated!
also john are you talking about the room me and you were in at madison? for the training we did?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jingles,

Yes, thanks John for a history lesson. It is good to know where you come from and what your roots are. I feel some companies have forgotten that in the here and now.

Also, thanks for answering my other questions. So it was just based off of looking at the light, not a light meter or anything like that. I know some people who are light meter junkies, to me, I go by what my eyes see and not what some meter tells me. The meter doesn't have to watch the show after all .

Again, thanks for the info.

Edit: Also John, your DS 250 has one color wheel and an iris already in it, didn't see the 3D Glass in the 300 before though. Good to know that the frost is punchier with the 300w lamp too. I will have to try and see one for myself. Any comparisons vs a 250?

Comparison with DS250 or any other 250?

let me just interject this here: right when you think all the companies couldnt be further apart from being even remotely related you get info like what john has posted about Robe and Coemar and Martin and Elation amazing huh?

Well, let's just say the DS 250. Another quick question, how much better is the output of the DS 250 Pro vs the DS 250. Reason I am asking a lot of these questions is I am looking to pick up 4 DS 250s, DS 250 Pros, or a couple of DS 300s. Weighing my options here.

So far, from what i've seen the DS250 is only a little bit brighter.

I put the DS250Pro and the DS250 side by side and it was only a bit brighter.. but not like Wow.. that's way brighter.
the DS300 is Wow!! that brighter!!

DS250 vs..DS300E

CMY color mixing - DS300E
2 facet + 3D Prism - DS300E
Pan tilt lock - DS300E and DS250 pro
Replaceable color wheeel - DS300E and DS250Pro
30 Character LCD screen -DS300E and DS250Pro

You can see that these features are pretty close but the 300E has a bit more with the 300watt lamp.
then you need to consider the lamp life??? 1000 hours vs 3000hrs?
Lamp cost the same.

But as I said earlier. people are looking for a lot more light output out of smaller fixtures... DS300 comes in here.



DS300