ALright Elation Guys I need your Help with this

Ive Been Using Elation Products since 03'.Started out with 26 powerspot/power wash 250's, Now i Have the new design spot 575's 12 of them and 6 power wash 575's, Did major tours with American Idol, Tigres Del Norte, Vince Neil Of Motley Crue, and so many other artists, That prefer Elation over Martin or High End. Dont get me wrong here, High end And martin Are great Brands, But why Pay So Much For So little. Elation's Lights offer so much more for your money. I would Stick to Elation Great service And MORE BANG FOR YOUR BUCK.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK Guys.

Thanks I'll use some of that in my arguement, I know I get more bang for the buck, I just don't know all the stats of that statement. I have set through several Elation Roadshows with Eric Loeder and listened to all of the good stats vs Martin but of course didn't take notes

ya but even if you can prove it. will they really listen? believe me i was ready to do battle on anyone that tried to bash this company but i have learned to let it go cause if people don't want to hear it.......they wont! take notes bro!! lol also if you look close enough on some old concert bootleg footage on youtube of creeds weathered tour. you will find elation power spot 575's and washes aswell!

Hi DJbutter.
Elation Vs. Martin just started about 2-3 years ago.. 3 years ago Elation was not what we are now. Martin has a 20 year history. So it's stands that even to Elation, Martin is a well respected company that has had to endure huge price increases due to the Euro. None the less Martin has great engineers that have a history of creating great products.. this is why they are where they are.
Elation is a company where we strive to follow the High End philosophy. High end was known for good products and good service when service was needed. Customer's did not have a problem getting support from High End and people were very happy with them. So that's all were really stiving for. Our motto is to bring great value and inovation to a product at an affordable price. Elation has German and US engineers and designers and together with our Asian manufacturers are able to bring to the US a really good afordable fixture.
Either way, I never recommend getting in a heated discussion with any Martin fans, its a no win battle.
Instead, always agree with them on that Martin is good and it never breaks, then this should leave you with open minds as to your opinions on other products that you've tried.
The other thing is, if you've never used a Martin fixture, then you really shouldn't say anything about a product you've never used, because that just puts you on the same side as the Martin Fan.

Either way, keep up the good work, and look out for our Design Spot 1400E and Design Spot 300E... These are going to be some awesome fixtures.

Best regards,

Martin, while a great company, does charge a lot for their products, as much as Vari-Lite and they are by no means on the same level as Vari-Lite. What a lot of people forget is that Martin originally started the same way as Elation did. They where a company who catered to the DJ crowd and slowly moved up to compete with Vari-Lite and High End. They have forgotten their roots however, as they still aren't on the same level as Vari-Lite but charge that much for their gear. I will take a VL2000 or VL2500 every time over a Mac 700. They are built far better, more road worthy, very easy to crack open and work on, and have the same if not more features for the price. Any LD who says otherwise hasn't experienced the power and ease of VL or have not worked on one for themselves.

High End is a totally different story. They have left the low and middle ground market all together and are only making high end consoles and fixtures now, Hog 3, DL3, and Showgun for example. They don't work on the level of companies like Elation, Martin, or Vari-Lite any more. It will be interesting to see how they response to the new GrandMA2 however (Hog 4 anyone?).

Now, onto my stories about Elation and the successes I have had with them. First, the price. As stated, the price/performance blows Martin away. This means I can rent Elation gear cheaper, which means more gear on site, which means a better show, which means a happier client. My clients don't care what type of gear is one site, as long as it gets the job done. Do you really think big name stars care either? They don't care as long as they get what they are looking for and it works.

Next, I would have to say the feature set on Elation products is great. They add more features for less, but at the same time features that I use, and use often. For example, animation wheel in the DS 575 vs the Mac 575 with none. How about 2 full rotating wheels instead of one static and one rotating in the Mac 575? The DS also has CMY and a color wheel vs 2 color wheels. How about a faster strobe, 13hz vs 10hz, and a frost filter in the DS vs none in the Mac 575? The only real advantage the Mac 575 has vs the DS 575 is a little better optic train, so it's a little bit brighter, and 16bit control over dimming (Pretty useless), color wheels (I never use), rotating gobos (Extremely useful when adding costume gobos, ELATION PLEASE ADD THIS) iris (Useless), focus (Sometimes useful), and zoom (Useless).

Then ask your friends about how Elation is the only company (soon to be one of two) with a moving head LED fixture that matches a 575 wash. People love the things, and I loved it when I saw it myself. Small and powerful. Why are your friends spending more for less? Also, Martin does nothing with LEDs, big disadvantage since that is the way the market is heading.

If you would like more info, like reviews I have done with the Impression vs a PS575, Mac 700 vs PS 700 CMY, a review I did about the Opti 30 RGBs, which I love by the way, or even a DLED 36 vs a 750w Source Four ParNel, let me know and I will be happy to post more info.

Tell them to go fight that battle over at www.lightnetwork.com there are thousands of people who HATE Martin with a passion. They will get plenty of reasons why martin is bad. I love Elation and will never stop using them, but the point is, every company has its strengths and weaknesses. If you do a show using a variety of companies you are bound to have a light that will pick up the slack that others leave down. They should all work together.

Well, got to go! I'll finish later.

jthtiger

I have had a chance to play around with both a ds575 and aswell as a new ds300. And both fixtures really amazed me. It will be a hard pick between the two for anyone considering to buy either or. But a selling point for me is the two rot. Gobo wheels in the 575.

I have Plenty of pics of Martin300's vs elation250's If you want pics just email me.

I've worked with both brands and I'm just not wowed by Martin. They have yet to prove to me that my money is buying me something I'll be happy with making the investment in. I'm not saying that they don't get the job done. Rather, it's just what I'm considering when I would make a serious investment in lighting.

Elation, on the other hand, has totally wowed me and made me a firm believer in their products. From dimmer packs to moving heads, I know who to count on. Features, yes. Reliability, yes. Quality: yes. Worthiness of investment, absolutely! I truly feel that Elation has gone the extra mile to make their products both accessible and of the highest quality possible.

Specifically, I am in love with the Design Spot. All I can say is WOW.

lightech wait till you get your hands on a DS 300!! so fun!

When I first heard about the DS 300s, I was excited. Then I hard the price point and was a little upset.

A DS 250 lists for $2500. A DS 300 lists for $4600. The differance in the two fixtures feature wise, 250w vs 300w, no CMY vs CMY, magnetic ballast vs electronic ballast, 20 degree beam vs 22 degree beam. Lamp life, 3000 hours vs 1000 hours. If it were me, I would much rather go for 2 DS 250s over one DS 300. CMY, while great, won't be very punchy at 300w. I find sometimes when using it with 700w fixtures that it can be lack luster on certain colors.

Also, the DS 575 lists for $900 more then the DS 300. The differences between these two are huge I feel. CMY and color wheel vs just color wheel, 2 rotating gobo wheels vs one static one rotating, 15-30 degree zoom vs 22 degree fixed, animation wheel vs none, and the big one, 575w 1000 hour lamp vs 300w 1000 hour lamp.

I am by no means saying that the DS 300 line is not and/or will not be any good. I just feel it is priced a little high for what it is. I think I would much rather pay $400 more for 2 DS 250s, or $900 more for a DS 575, just how I feel. I would be more interested in the price was more around $3800. It also gives room then to add a DS 400 line at that $4600 price, a Mac 550 competitor. That would then give a light at every point, from 250w to 1200-1400w when the new DS 1400 series is released.

I think once you get beyond looking at just the MSRP, you'll probably see the price difference between the DS250 and the DS300 to be more in the $1500-ish range, rather than the $2100 difference in the MSRP.

You'll have to evaluate the price difference as being a worthwhile investment in the new features (depending upon your interests, of course).

By just doing a quick search online, you will see that the DS300 is selling below $3800, so there you go.

I certainly wouldn't mind playing with the DS300 if I got the chance. What would make it sweeter would be to mess with it on the Show Designer 3...

At the same time the DS 250 is below $2500 too. I listed list prices because they are readily available on Elation's website. I can tell you what M.A.P. is for those fixtures as well, but it would be unfair to dealers who try to get the most out of each sale. At the end of the say however, you will still be able to get 2 DS 250s for about $400 more then one, maybe even less because the profit for the dealer might be greater on two DS 250s vs one DS 300.

Hey Guys.. all I have to say is the Design Spot 300 has light output similar to a 575.
If you were to put a 575W fixture and a Design Spot 300 next to each other at say 30 ft.. they look the same in output.

But when you get to 60 - 80 ft.. the 575 wins.

So its that initial punchy output at the 20-30' distance with the standard 22º beam that makes you say Wow, when you look at it.

So its something you need to see for yourself.

Those of you in production know how crucial light output is.. so if you can get it from a smaller fixture and not have to buy a 575, then the price on the 300 doesn't sound so bad.. Also remembering that our 575 is over $1000.00 less than the competitors.

Let me ask you this then John. How punchy is it when using CMY for dark colors vs the 575? Also, how was the 575 zoomed when making the comparison, meaning was it matching size, smaller, or larger?

The size thing is really most important, because if the DS 300 is as bright as a smaller size DS 575, then I am impressed. Same size, ok, a little bit. If it is the same as a larger size DS 575, then I am not impressed at all, because you are getting larger coverage with the 575 then.

Color should be really interesting, especially since the 300 has a higher color temperature. With that, it will lose more with red and amber colors then the 575 will. Remember, the 'brightest' color temperature is around 4500K which is more or less pure white. With movers, they are sometimes perceived brighter then conventionals lamped at 3200K or 3050K thanks to the higher color temperature. However, when color is added, it becomes the great equalizer.

I totally agree with all of you. while most of the rig i use is robe (which if i remember correctly was partnered up with elation for a while right?) We just added a whole bunch of ds250 for our rental department and everyone loves them and have never had any technical problems at all. the only problem i can see and hopefully it will be eliminated in the near future is that out of all the tech riders i have seen not once have i seen elation. But we throw them in there anyway and have had no complaints

yes i believe we were partnered with robe for the active series of scanners we had. not 100% but john can confirm this.

The great debate: Who's Better; Martin or Elation?

If you want to go by reliability, name, popularity; then Martin tops the list. BUT, the world of lighting doesn't live off who has better gear, because it's all different.

I used to volunteer at a church that had MAC2000 profiles, and VL2402 washes, among other misc MAC fixtures located around the venue; and a GrandMA desk. They chose Martin for their reliability; same for VL. They put on massive conferences & live album recordings, always had Martin & VL gear - no Robe, HES, Elation, DTS, or any other brand. Why? Because they've had a great experience with their products

I now work at a production house with HES Cybers, IBeams, Studio Colours/Spots and some VL3k's. Why? Because that's the demographic in the area. There are no rock shows, touring groups; but mainly smaller shows, and corporate gigs. There are the occasional "big" shows, but they usually tour with their stuff, or get it from a bigger production house.

Then you can look at price basis' as to where a MAC250 Entour is about $28, while a DS250 is $17 - the obvious price difference is that Elation is building a name for themselves; while Martin has been out since the early 90's, has been established and made a name for themselves, and know that their products are going to be put on bid's and lists for people to purchase.

Martin has their demographic, VL has their demographic, HES doesn't make the big movers, but the XSpot, Beams & other fixtures have their demographic, and same thing for Robe, Coemar & Elation. You use whatever you "prefer" - or if you tour, you use what's available.

So no offence to anybody; but you have no argument when you say "this light is better than that light" or "this brand is better than that brand" - Unless you've tried every single 1200w fixture, every 700, 575, 250, LED, whatever you won't know what's best to you. I prefer Martin and love my Technobeams, but have to work with HES & VL because it's available. A moving light is a moving light - they have lamps, colors, gobos and effects. In the end, they're all made in China.

My two cents.

To above, I am afraid some of your statements are sadly mistaken. First, I have tried just about every mover and console out there, it is the nature of my business that I work in. So while my experiences might not be the same as the next guy, they are genuine none the less.

Demographics have a lot to do with what you use/own/rent. I will agree to that much. After that, it is a free for all. Some days I feel like using a Mac 700 over a Power Spot 700, just because I can. However, whenever I can, I use VL. As for consoles, there are days I will take a Hog 3, some a GrandMA, still others a Jands Vista, in theatre, I use a lot of ETC, and I am currently looking into buying for myself an ETC Ion thanks to its small, powerful frame. For someone looking to rent and/or purchase, you want to get the most for your money. That lies with Elation right now. I am simply at a point which I can pick and choose what I want for my larger shows.

HES makes the biggest 'mover' if you can call it that. It is the ShowGun, 2000w discharge lamp with gobos and a ring of LEDs to boot. I don't count Syncrolites because they really aren't movers, just giant moving spot lights in my eyes. If you want, I can state my opinions on the x.Spot, which aren't positive. Also, the Studio line is very old at this point, but won't be updated because High End is just that now, High End.

The statement that everything is made in China is also false. VL is made in America, Texas to be exact. This is why they are referred to as Texans by some. Some of Elation's products are made in Europe, like the Impression. Martin is made in Sweden. ETC is also made in America. HES is USA as well I believe. Jands comes from down under. Coemar is Italy.

If you have truly been inside these fixtures, you will know that Martin has a lot of extra stuff inside that they don't need. They are also a pain to pull apart thanks to random PC boards everywhere. They also still use ribbon strips for connectors, which is the cause for a lot of the problems in them. They just come lose from traveling and rattling around in the backs if trucks. This is something left over from their DJ days.

Hi Serra,
RSLX.. thanks for your input. That's what I was saying on my previose post.. Once you use a lighting fixture.. you can say what you like and what you don't like.. I've used a few top brand fixtures that I thought were going to be great but didn't impress me after I used them. You have to really use them to see how they work and respond to your needs.

Serra,
Good questions.. You can see that the 575 has a warmer color temp, but at that 30' distance there was not much of a difference.. the DS300 punched through all the colors just as good as the 575. Also the room I was in was dark but not completely blacked out, so I was working with some ambient light comming in.
I zoomed the 575 to be 22 degrees just like the 300 becuase the 575 can zoom down to 15 degrees.
Remember its still a 300W lamp..575 lamp will be brighter in lumens..It just apears to be as bright as a 575.

Again at farther distances you don't really want 22 degrees.. so when it comes to the 300 we can't compare it to a 575 becuase the 575 wins.. .but we are comparing to most 250's in the market for a few reasons.

1.. because its brighter than any 250 similar to 575.
2.. has a bigger beam angle than most 250's
3.. has cmy color mixing. I don't know what 250 has this right now.
4.. has Iris..I don't know what 250.
5.. 2 prisms effects
6.. frost filter - yet another reason the 300 is exiting.. more light output when you add the frost filter for wash effect.

Oh and size.. the 300 is about 1" bigger and chubbier than the Design Spot 250.. alot smaller than a 575 moving head.

Jingles.. Here's a bit of history on Elation Robe.
in 2001 Elation imported Robe products with the Elation brand name. this is when Elation name in moving heads got started.
Color Spot and Wash 250, Color Spot and Wash 575, Vision 250, Vision 575.
By the end of 2003 Elation started and owned Robe America. Where the products mentioned above were branded both Elation and Robe at the same time.. You'll still find some fixtures like this.
In 2005 Elation sold Robe America to Robe which is in the Zcech replubic where they manufacture all there products.
This is one reason why on the manufacturer side we can't say this company is better than that company..
Coemar also used to distribute the Color Spot 250 from Robe, and Coemar used to distribute Martin Product before Martin became Martin.

Best regards,

thanks for the piece of history! appreaciated!
also john are you talking about the room me and you were in at madison? for the training we did?

Yes, thanks John for a history lesson. It is good to know where you come from and what your roots are. I feel some companies have forgotten that in the here and now.

Also, thanks for answering my other questions. So it was just based off of looking at the light, not a light meter or anything like that. I know some people who are light meter junkies, to me, I go by what my eyes see and not what some meter tells me. The meter doesn't have to watch the show after all .

Again, thanks for the info.

Edit: Also John, your DS 250 has one color wheel and an iris already in it, didn't see the 3D Glass in the 300 before though. Good to know that the frost is punchier with the 300w lamp too. I will have to try and see one for myself. Any comparisons vs a 250?

Comparison with DS250 or any other 250?

let me just interject this here: right when you think all the companies couldnt be further apart from being even remotely related you get info like what john has posted about Robe and Coemar and Martin and Elation amazing huh?

Well, let's just say the DS 250. Another quick question, how much better is the output of the DS 250 Pro vs the DS 250. Reason I am asking a lot of these questions is I am looking to pick up 4 DS 250s, DS 250 Pros, or a couple of DS 300s. Weighing my options here.

So far, from what i've seen the DS250 is only a little bit brighter.

I put the DS250Pro and the DS250 side by side and it was only a bit brighter.. but not like Wow.. that's way brighter.
the DS300 is Wow!! that brighter!!

DS250 vs..DS300E

CMY color mixing - DS300E
2 facet + 3D Prism - DS300E
Pan tilt lock - DS300E and DS250 pro
Replaceable color wheeel - DS300E and DS250Pro
30 Character LCD screen -DS300E and DS250Pro

You can see that these features are pretty close but the 300E has a bit more with the 300watt lamp.
then you need to consider the lamp life??? 1000 hours vs 3000hrs?
Lamp cost the same.

But as I said earlier. people are looking for a lot more light output out of smaller fixtures... DS300 comes in here.



DS300