Spare dongle / mortality worries

Excuse my possible ignorancem on Elation software issues.

As I understand it, most of the software is available as an unlimited "try before you buy" situation, where in the end, you're really paying for the hardware. While not entirely true, you do need specific hardware to work with specific software as there are hard ties between dongle and software so you can't just mix and match.

Of course, you can also back-up to a USB memory stick too, which you can also cram your software installation set onto as well(probably onto a CD-R as well), for, as you said, installation on-site, which is the whole purpose of what you're trying to accomplish. Since optical media can fail for a wide variety of reasons(say, my in-laws using their system restore CD's as coasters, grinders and frisbees), it's best to have multiples since they are so cheap. Also, I always recommend more than one manner of back-up.

But, you're taking things up one more level. Not just computer failure, but your interface failure, which is a very valid concern. Unfortunately, it's going to cost you, and your best bet is the used market and you do need an exact like for like replacement. While Elation can repair your damaged hardware, the whole point for you is to stay up and running, so having a "hot spare" is definately the way to go. And yes, it's going to be a rather expensive proposition unless it's one of those people looking to liquidate and exit the industry type of deals.

As reliable as the Elation hardware is, as we all know, anything can fail at any time. I had an RTA recently stop working properly with the reference mic input, so that's going off for repair tomorrow. I won't go into why it didn't go out last Friday. Laptops can fail, so you'll want a recent mirror image for fast install, or perhaps a complete back-up on a portable hard drive. Either way though, you have less costs involved in those options.

Sorry to say, unless you can find a great deal on Craigslist or Ebay or some other gear swap/selling site, you're not going to have much luck.

Then again, if my shows are so important, $400-600 is cheap insurance and would be covered by part of just one show's worth of income for me, so it's a justified expense. Even so, $400-600 is still quite a hit to the bank account.

Ya sorry but we really don't offer lower pricing just because you already have a interface. Kinda like going to say best buy and buying two flat screens, one for you one for in case that one breaks. Best buy wouldn't give you a discount they would see it as a two unit sale not a backup sale. Make sense? Keep looking online. Also if your interested we do have new interfaces available for purchase. We have compu cue, compu Show SD, and compu Show SD+. These next generation interfaces will work with compu live aswell as our Upcoming soon to be released Compu Show software. New interfaces are also windows 64 bit compatible. Just a little F.Y.I. for you. If you have any more questions please feel free to let us know.
Sincerely,

James; thanks for the reply.

On a strictly hypothetical note: I think what makes sense is to make our products easy for our valued, authorized users to manage and upgrade...

Why not use an iLok USB device as the authorization dongle and require a number that is specific to the single software serial number and iLok key?

Paying $ 600 to buy a duplicate retail package should not be required. I'll bet that the dongle costs Elation less than $ 40 to build. Passing that un-necessary expense onto a registered customer is a sign of an underdeveloped product and coporate anti-piracy scheme. "we just couldn't figure out how to help you." Really?

Even if I had to rebuild my WAVES iLok dongle, software and licenses, that is a max of $ 80 for a new dongle and annual subscription protection, replaced in 30 minutes. My WAVES licenses are controlled by the software and dongle drivers delivered over the internet. The $ 40 dongle is sold at Guitar Center, which closes at 10 PM, but if I bought a spare, then the internet is always open to download the license.

Sell the DMX interface cheap, sell a basic license cheap and you've set the hook for customer loyalty. Imagine cheap razors without replacement blades, no loyalty at all.

I suppose because Elation has no other software control, that the dongle becomes "everything". I understand that. But I don't have to pay retail twice for my other dongle's (iLok) backup. It's only a cheap dongle, only a serial number and it can be replaced without buying a new retail package from WAVES.

I am sadly surprised that either everyone else pays for the Elation product twice or doesn't carry a backup.

Of course, if my iLok (and factory delivered authorization) was the controlling device, then you guys could sell me an upgrade from 1024EC to the 2048 and I would use my original dongle as a USB/DMX interface that would never be obsolete. You could probably sell a 2048 software upgrade license for $250 dollars, and grow with my business, rather than force me to throw it all out when I upgrade.

Plus the $ 40 I might pay each year for the replacement license protection.

In the modern world, the authorization license is good for customer loyalty, wouldn't you say?

Hi Tom,

all good ideas and we appreciate your feed back.

However in the lighting world Compu is not just a software, its a lighting controller. It has a misperception because of the software and your personal PC, that its just software, but its a lighting controller.

Just as in a Show Designer 2 or 3, or even the nice $30K lighting desks like GrandMa or Jands Vista that are valued at more than $1000.00 a spare console at a lighting show is must. If you can imagine spending $30,000.00 on a lighting console then someone telling you that you should by a spare.
But that is the reality of our lighting world.

The cost of the Compu box is not determined by how much the plastic and PC board cost, it is determined by how much it cost to develop the software it self. There is a lot of work behind this software. In fact there is a whole team working everyday developing and improving on the software to make it a better control system, and although the software is perceived to be free, the costs to develop the software are recuperated in the sale of an interface.

That is why there are 2 interface options, one may not need the full features of what the software has to offer, so they really shouldn't have to pay for it, so there is the 2 options available for purchase.

With the current hacking going on, making codes and subscriptions would take adding on more people to the Compu development team which is currently not the direction of Compu at this time.

I can tell you that a few developers were added to make Compu MAC compatible, so that's good news. This is where the Market has been pushing us to focus on.

Again, thanks for your input.

Best regards,

Just adding a bit more, since Support brought up issues in regards to hacking and piracy, and Tom682 brought up iLok into the equation:

Software piracy costs the software industry billions per year. File sharing is KILLING royalties for musicians, artists and bands(and don't get me starting on the crap-tastic MP3 suck format), equating to further BILLIONS in losses.

How do I do my part? First, NO MP3's!!! Unless I make them(I won't), MP3's don't exist in my network and infrastructure. If I want the music, movie, or whatnot, I go buy it, either by going into a brick and mortar store or mail order. In a show I'm working on, I have been provided access to damn near everything for free. I said I'm showing my support by PAYING for my materials, which came as a shock to the cast and crew, but my total investment: maybe $30(BluRay and soundtrack CD). Plus I had to pay an additional fee for 2 software packages so I could rip the BluRay to my drive and use it for HD video editing. I also paid a licensing fee to the studio to obtain permission to do the RIP, so my investment is still quite low.

Same goes for software. If I want it, I buy it. If I don't legally own the license, then to hell with it. Yes, I will try trial-ware, but most doesn't pass my test, but that's why it's tried before I decide to buy. So many games I could copy, yet I won't and don't.

This is unlike my in-laws, who feel they have to steal/copy everything. Frustrating when I give them a copy of my CD, and no, they won't open it, they have to find an illegally shared copy to use. Sounds worse too!

Adding iLok protection to software is NOT the same as having a back-up. Granted, you can get up and running for faster and cheaper, but we're talking a SOFTWARE product with possible hardware dependencies(say, ProTools?) Do you have a back-up ProTools hardware package?

I also get what support says about it being a "controller package", similar in thought to ProTools, which is hardware AND software working together as one larger system. And while i agree with what Tom682 says about how it can't possibly cost more than $40 to produce the hardware, I'm in full support of Support talking about how the costs are also tied into software development, R&D and ongoing support and maintenance issues, which ain't cheap and is most likely the bulk of the product. I know, I've worked in similar industries(modem hardware and firmware), so I know what goes on and where the money goes. Plus, let's say they just sell the box for $40. What's to say you don't slam the software on another machine and now you have 2 lighting controllers via 2 PC's? Who loses now?

What's to say that your idea of authorizations and upgrades works? But, hardware can and does become outdated. I had to BUST MY BUTT to get a basic ProTools system, and then I find out that with this free stuff they are giving away, my authorization discs are now a think of the past since they are giving a better version away. GRRRR! Plus they phased out the hardware too. Double GRRRRR!! $5000 down the crapper!!!! Grrrr! What's to say Elation won't do similar things? I mean, we're not talking "let's screw the customer" here, we're talking "At some point, we got to let go of the past and move forward or we can't evolve this product", which is case and point what happened with me and my ProTools hardware. Angry? Yup. Understanding? Yes. Pleased? Not exactly, because it is a big loss. What about Apple? Killing OS 6.x off, then 7.x, then 68K processors, then PPC processors, then G3/4/5 processors, and finally killing OS 8.x and 9.x.

What about us audio guys here? I need my analog console. Paid $60K for it. Now I need to get a digital console. No upgrade path here!!!

I'm starting to confuse myself here, but we're not talking "apples to apples" here, we're talking "apples to brocolli" here. Ain't the same species.

Oh, and iLok integration would add some costs too. Not saying it's a bad thing, but between the dongle, the software and an iLok, we're asking for one more thing to fail in time.

whew!!! I feel you Chris,
we should put you on family guys, "what really grinds my gears"
LOL

Haha. Agreed.
Chris your gonna make me have to get glasses with all your long post.
Give me 1000 words on why elation is better than our competition. Haha. GO!

Actually, I don't need that many words. Elation is proving itself to me rather quickly, starting with their Antari line. I post to get some help for troubeshooting and I get a call to get resolve. Wow! Customer service.

I inquire about certain lights, and I find out what I need to get, although it takes many posts back and forth. End result: I'm saving up money for the Opti Tri Pars.

Need something to protect my MyDMX hardware and give me easier cable management? OptiBranch/4

Amazing gear, exceptional prices. Yes, more expensive than ADJ gear, but we're talking prices inline with features, so it's like for like from the concept of "well, we scale up the price because we're scaling up what the fixture can do", but it's not like to like because we're talking a line of gear targetted at a different marketplace.

Which comes back to the Compu software:
We're talking about a product that, SHOULD it be made into a desk, would be at a price frightening to most people. But, good gear costs. But, to enable such console-type functionality into a PC/Mac/Laptop/desktop type computer-based solution, well, it's easier to have lower costs for total ownership going a computer solution.

For example, with the price of MyDMX and what I paid, it was slightly more than what I paid for my DMX Operator. But, MyDMX kicks the DMX Operator's butt big time in feature set. Am I getting rid of the DMX Operator? Nope. I have applications for it still, but it's not my "go to" device anymore.

Some of those high-end consoles can get up there, and it hurts the pocketbook UNLESS you're making serious green doing work. This goes for audio AND lighting, but with lighting, you get less "wiggle room", to the best of MY knowledge. With an audio desk, at least in the analog world, I know my way around and know how to pull what I want out of a board that may lack features I really want to utilize.

Like, gee, I really wanted a Midas Heritage 3000, 4000 or an XL4, but I can't afford that. I settled(and by settled, I can't say anything bad) for an A&H ML5000, which I gotta say, I love to death!! But going digital, yeah, I want an XL8 ot a Avid/Digidesign Venue, but again, funds aren't there, so I am looking at the A&H iLive T-series.

So, Jingles is talking, quite successfully into new software to help me replace MyDMX but working inline with where my business is taking me. And it sounds like I may be paying over $1400 or more for new software/hardware.(feel free to change that to MSRP if I boned it up). Ouch, yes. Big freakin' ouch, especially since I'm a sound guy. But, I can see how it benefits my business and the events I want it for. Hard to swallow, but it's a meal I'll choke down and digest in time.

I don't even want to think what I'd have to do to learn a lighting desk, and frankly, excuse my attitude, I don't want to. I don't have the time for it and I'm an audio guy, so forget it. Oh, don't worry, I love lighting folks, and so I want you to keep doing what you do best! For me, Elation's software solutions save me mega bucks over dedicated hardware solutions, lower learning time and get me productive faster. It makes up for the impression of high costs. You get what you pay for, if you look at it one way. The way I see it, I saved myself $30K or more, so I'm one happy dude, and that's money that goes towards Elatiaon lights and audio gear.

Does anyone wonder why I stick with these brands? Sure, you nail my wallet, but you stand behind the products, service what you make/sell, and help me stay productive, active and growing my business. Why the hell would I go somewhere else? Even when it's come to saving money by going elsewhere, I have to look at the "big picture". If I have a company backing me up(hey, endorsement, anyone?), then I'll pay a bit more knowing help is nearby or the product is made better so I have less downtime. THAT saves me money.

So, looking at mission critical stuff, granted, I can't always afford to double up on some things. But, $400-600 is an inexpensive wireless mic(I typically start in the $750 street priced models). If lighting is that important to me, I'd eat that money on fail-over stuff in a snap if the money is there.

So, the question is: HOW important is this to your business? I hear the original poster's argument, but I know what the reality is because I've been there from the touring perspective and product perspective. It can cost MILLIONS to design something that has to be sold at a low price break. We make it up on numbers. Pro lighting and sound gear, cranked out or not(and that's a whole other issue), is, believe it ot not, specialized gear. As such, it comes at a premium because it doesn't move the same numbers. But, those who want and need it will pay for it, because they understand.

OK, enough as I can go on a ProTools tangent or a data comm tangent.

Wait, I will:
I have a client who, didn't buy from me(that's OK), 4 massive Cisco routers, each costing over $750K each. 2 in one building, 2 in another. That means the redundancy costs them $1.5MILLION!!!!! Not to mention the data circuit fees! And that's just ONE example. They replace these every 3 years, and the costs ain't going down! AND they pay for a maintenance contract with fast turn-around times. And, this goes back 12 years.

$3Million X 4 replacement cycles, at a 15-25% increase per upgrade cycle estimates, plus recurrring monthly circuit fees of over $425/month times 2 circuits, 4 end points. Do the math. And that spare set has, to date, NEVER NEEDED to be used. Go figure. Just to go from one building to another across the street. I could run some dark cable and save them $900/month and use some better CSU/DSU's to get around those issues!

Good stuff has a cost. Redundancy has "redundant" costs. We're not talking a back-up disk set, we're talking "the capability to have a second system running" type things.

I'm sorry I asked. I want a backup method that isn't a retail duplicate purchase of the identical product. If that can't be done here, then so be it. I'm not pirating anything, I'm a paying customer.

I use my light show for MY BAND, not worldwide touring. I am budgeted out of my own pocket. I'm a grown man with 4 kids.

I want run my lighting reliably, without failing the people that depend on me to run a great light show on a low quote. I do my best and I ask questions to learn about the products (you know, it's a forum). Best wishes to you all.

Hey Tom none of us were "Scolding" you for asking. We were simply letting you know why we chose to not go the route you mentioned. I do hope you will still be a poster on these forums and share your knowledge or tips for compu live.
Like elation Pro said we really do appreciate your feedback.
Sincerely,

Wel, Tom, you don't seem to understand properly what redundancy is, especially in your environment.

Redundancy can be "touring with 3 lighting(1 live, 2 hot spares) consoles, 5 back-up computers, back-up hard drives and optical media, 2 monitor consoles, 2 FOH consoles, and a complete set of spare outboard racks". And don't forget a 20% back-up of the mains gear(subs, amps, cabling, speaker cabs, spare components), and half the monitors(again, cabs, amps, components). Yeah, nothing like lugging a few million bucks in extra gear, taking up valuable truck space to the point where a dedicated extra driver has to be hired and on payroll, not to mention truck lease, per diem, maintenance and fuel costs.

Redundancy has costs. It means having to spend sufficiently to ensure a complete BACK-UP solution should the primary fail. In your case, it means having a second Compu retail purchase in order to obtain the hardware. It's not a piracy issue, it's a matter of "That's what the price is to run this software".

In the case of a tour:
Redundancy for playback tracks involves:
Back-up laptop
Back-up Drive
Back-up of drive onto optical media
Back-up interface

So, basically, whatever is the primary system, a total duplication of that. This is a mission critical element.

In regards to lighting and audio, often whatever is needed can be hired shor term or long term at short notice, so these days, carring extra desks and lighting consoles is often not done anymore due to trying to shave production costs down, even before the economy took a big steaming crap on all of us.

I mean, if you really want to get down to it, a stamped CD costs pennies to make, anywhere from $1 to as little as 1 cent depending on the size of the run. You have to factor in the costs of the glass master, quality control testing, and how is it packaged(paper sleeve, slimline case, full jewel case, DVD style case, and silkscreening).

So, without knowing crap about crap(after all, I'm just some stupid audio guy), by your justification, getting redundant would cost you around $50. But the reality is that this won't happen. Best you could hope for is a maintenance contract with advanced repair item shipped within 24 hours of claim, with a 72-hour return of defective hardware. I don't think Elation offers that sort of service.

In my case, I have a redundant power supply for fail-over purposes for my console. I forget what that power supply cost, but it also involved a power pass-thru cable. I'm sure it was over $1600 for that item.

In the case of software products, like ProTools and your Waves stuff, redundancy is what you choose to use, provided your hardware doesn't fail. If you buy an 003 interface, and you want redundancy, you buy 2 003 interfaces, but you only need to buy ProTools LE once, and likewise with your WAVES plug-in. Let's say you do most of your work on your home machine, so you install your stuff on there, use your iLok for authorizations and bingo, you're running. But, let's say you want to hit the road and record a live event. Install your software on your laptop, move your hardware over, plug in the iLok and there ya go. Now your redundancy seems to cost less, but don't forget what you paid for that laptop.

So, please understand what fail-over preparedness costs. I have to deal with this sort of thing at least once a week with some client who wants "redundancy and fail-over protection", but then freaks out when they understand it involves duplication of gear. It's not like I'm selling a massively expensive router to someone for points A and B, and a massively expensive DSU/CSU for those routers in the first place, but also circuits to move the data over. Then what do we do to save costs for fail-over? Well, do I slam a cheap 1700-series router in it's place for fail-overs? I can't because I needed that big router for necessary features, so I can't fail-over properly unless I have proper gear.

Then there's always the worse case scenario. Remember that big set of routers? Duplicate circuits? Doesn't do you a wad of crap when some moron operating heavy equipment slices through telco wires buried underground because nobody did the pre-dig survey.

This is different than a home user, who might buy a router with firewalling and excessive packet level filtering for their primary broadband protection and access, then keeping their old cheap broadband router as a back-up.

Yes, this is expensive stuff. I'm a grown man wiht 3 kids(4th is planned) and I have to do this out of my own pocket. I have to charge DJ-type rates for true concert sound production to work where I am so every bit of theft hurts, and every purchase is a bit hit to the wallet. And I know my investment is well over the $300K mark now and it's going to jump to over $400K investment within the next 2 years.

On the plus side, which no doubt you're doing, is you're buying QUALITY gear. This theoretically means less downtime, higher uptime, better reliability and lower total cost of ownership, which equates to a better return on investment. You're already in that direction for your lighting platform. If you're worried about your Compu dongle, get a small Pelican case for it, as padded cases are a good thing and always recommended. Carry a spare USB 2.0 cable, that's good cheap insurance. Honestly, the weak point is your laptop, mainly because it's a "soft" platform and hard drives can fail(as can any laptop component). But you're already thinking about backing up your data, which you mentioned optical media, but I prefer USB sticks because they are more dynamic, but I won't argue your CD-R based solution either because it has its own merits as well.

So, if you want to ensure higher reliability, I have the following suggestions:
1: Case for your dongle, or at least don't just toss it in the laptop bag.
2: Spare USB cable. Cables are cheap, they break, have a back-up.
3: Back-up solution(USB stick or CD) of show data. You're on this one already.
4: Take it out of yout truck when not in use. Don't store it in there. Heat affects components. I remove my mics from the truck between events.
5: Get an OptiBranch/4 or MultiBranch/4. Yes, despite the costs, the features and optical isolation give you a buffer to protect your Compu dongle from getting fried due to something odd and bad happening on stage(say a surge sending voltage back down the DMX cable). This is more likely to be a problem than anything else. At any rate, it's also cheap insurance to keep things running.

Coming from all sides of the picture, I understand all sites of the situation. Sort of an unfair advantage, but a very real point of view.

The Compu hardware is very reliable. Take measures to protect it and you should be fine. I'd rather buy a MultiBranch/4 or OptiBranch/4(wait, I did, I need a second!). More than you're willing to spend maybe, but it's good to have regardless as they fix more things that I'm saying right now.

Hi Tom, I ditto what Jingles says, i think Studio was just venting, nothing to what you posted. Just venting.
non the less there is a product made that covers what your looking for.
its called a dMX partner, its made to record a few scenes and chases using your compu, in case something does go wrong with PC or interface.
http://www.americandj.com/Prod...ory=&ItemNumber=1561

this unit has a 96 channel limit and will recored scenes from your compu, if anything ever fails this will be a cool back up system.

Best regards,

Hey now there's a product for the new line.
One of those basic controllers that natively accepts programming from Compu, to be used as a standalone. And while you're at it, make it a live control surface using the MIDI over USB. Give Mueller some competition!