Hazer/Fazer....confusion :confused:

A Fazer does both fog and haze. You simply run it at a lower output to get a fazer to haze. All fazers (that I know of) are water based only.

Most hazers are oil based. There are some that are water and oil based. The HZ-400 does both oil and water based for example. I am still waiting on an answer to my question with regards to the HZ300 and whether or not it can use water as well as oil based, as seen here: http://forums.elationlighting....31084274/m/745105374

Oil based tends to hang longer and look nicer then water based, but creates problems with residue and some don't like the smell. Oil is also more likely to trip beam sensors and smoke sensors then water based.

Hopefully this helps and answers a few questions.

I've often been waiting for someone to ask this question and I'm actually surprised no one ever has. where do i start.

A Fazer is basically a fog machine. Fog machines need to heat up for 15 minutes this incorporates a heating element that create your fog/haze effect.
We don't actually call this machine a hazer. however many other manufacturers consider them Hazer because they provide a continuous amount of Fog/haze without the big blast of smoke.
So these are considered heater based hazer that utilize water based fog fluid.
You can buy heavy fluids which have a long hang time or quick disapating fluids that don't last long and disipate much faster.
These fluids are in the fog machine catagory.

Then you arrive at your compressor based haze machines.. these machines don't require heat up time, simply power up and instant haze.. these are also true hazers. and with true hazers an oil or mineral based fluid will provide better reflective particles and less smoke, allowing your lights to look really good but not get all that smoke.
The drawback to these is they usually have a compressor sound to it like a generator and the oil residue leaves a thick film of oil on everything when used in an install over a period of time.
Very dificult to clean.

So the solution to that is to use a water based haze fluid for your compressor hazer. the problem hear is that a water based fluid never looks as good as an oil based fluid and many people expect the same results.. fact is oil based fluid looks better.

So to answer Serra's question... Water base haze fluid looks very weak on the HZ300.. it will haze and a customer of mine resently told me they use water based haze fluid on the HZ300, however i've seen it not work so good. you need an HZ400 or better for the water based haze fluid to work better.

To answer Ricks question a Fazer is half the price of an HZ400.
For the club your in you need to stay with a water based formula and the FAZER (X-310II) kicks butt in that enviornment.

X-310II Fazer offers blue indicator LED's on the fluid tank specifically designed for dark enviornments so that when those LEDs turn on that means you need to add more fluid.
Running foggers without fluid is what causes them to malfunction so this feature will allow your machines to last a long time.

Have fun

OK. I get what you're saying. Oil produces better results but leaves residue. For me, that's bad. Not acceptable, due to the residue. water-based doesn't work as well but you don't have the residue. I can handle that.

It sounds like the Fazer X-310II might be what I'm looking for. Use an Antari water-based fog fluid. OK, again, I'm good.

Now, I do have questions still. I want DMX control, so it sounds like I need to buy the X-20II DMX module, which is definately acceptable.

Just to be clear, this is mainly a hazer but can produce fog-type effects, correct? Your answer and the manual leads me to believe this to be true. The show producer has purchased a fog machine, so the need for a fog machine is minimized. I want the hazer for the general effect.

I want to cover a fairly large area, 31' wide by 18' deep. Performance will be approximately 100 minutes. I intend to run this the whole event. Would this unit draw 1000-watts the entire time? I don't think I can spare that much juice because the producer has a 1500-watt fog machine. I don't care if I have to refill it each show. It's going to be once a month.

For me, I have the ADJ Fog Storm 700 with the wireless remote, which just to test to see if it was still working, I used for a fast and cheesy halloween rig. While it worked great, it has a duty cycle that runs regardless of what is going on(say, you ignore it for a bit, it will cycle anyways). People seemed to like it, but I was less than pleased. Not bad for no budget and no time. Of course, we're talking a party-type machine, not a pro unit. The Fog Storms I have are therefore clearly not acceptable for professional applications where fog better be there when you need it. Considering these are sub-$100 retail units(feel free to remove the price), it's what can be expected from such a unit.

Right now I'm dealing with a director who is unable to make up their mind in regards to lighting and/or fog effects, and I'm the one footing this bill.

Now, if I can find a cost-effective DMX-capable ground fog unit... I have no idea where I can borrow 1000-watts from. I may have to bring in a generator so I can have another 30 amps of power.

Your on the right track. I believe X-310II is what your looking for. The other great features this machine has is it already comes with on board timer and DMX digital module!! this is awesome. It also features a blue LED fluid indicator, as soon as fluid levels are low it starts to blink telling you to add more fluid.

And to be clear the X-310II is mainly a fog machine producing a haze-type effect.

A haze machine runs continous, the minute you turn on a hazer the compressor starts and you have instant start and instant stop. So in DMX mode the DMX command is turning on the compressor and turning off the compressor.

Since the X-310II is a fog machine with a heater, then you need to wait 15 minutes for the machine to be ready to haze.
once its ready to haze the DMX command triggers output %.
If you run it at 100% then it will behave like a fogger...aproximatly 2 minutes of haze and then 2 minutes to warm up again.
So the way to get continous output would be to run it at 50% output. running it at 50% output gives you continuous haze. Like a hazer.. DMX command will trigger 0% output and dmx command will trigger 50% output for instant haze.

You may think that 50% is not enough but 50% x-310II output is equivelant to a really great haze machine.

Whether your running at 50% output or 100% output your machine will still require 1000Watts for the heating element inside the unit. it doesn't consume fluid when there is no output, it will only consume fluid when its running an at 50% output its not much
We run these for 8 hours a day durring trade shows, we fill them up in the morning and they run all day.

All x-series Antari foggers come with X-20 dmx timer modules

I hope all this info is useful.

I'm liking what I'm hearing a lot. The biggest issue now is money and other decisions. Personally, outside of the high current draw, I'm really pleased with what I'm hearing. Fogger and hazer in 1 unit. Less to lug.

If you're giving me numbers of 8 hours at 50% utilization, well, I doubt that would ever cause me problems. Setting the unit up 15 minutes ahead of time is no problem as I'll be there 3 hours early. The producer's fog machine is 15 minutes of warm-up time, so that seems to be the good "normal". I can easily live with that. I can get it going early and "prime" the venue. I've seen some of the spaces you'ved used at trade shows via photos, and that's larger than the main area I intend to cover.

The included X-20 really sold it for me, assuming I can buy the fazer soon. Even if I haveev to shoot a big burst of fog and the unit has to cycle, I can take advantage of the fog dissapating while the unit recovers.

The only issue is the blue LED fluid indicator, only because those are super bright and could be a distraction to the audience. This is easy to resolve via black tape or some sort of prop blocking it AND topping the tank before every show.

I like it. Addresses and resolves 4 issues: Fog machine, hazer, DMX and sticks within the ADJ and Elation company lines. If I don't get lights, I think this is my winner.

I'll just hold off on some high end mics a bit longer!

Hey Chris,

I have 3 of the X-310's and love them. In the photos seen here, it is actually one X-310 hazing a stage that is 65' wide, 30' deep, and the fly goes up all the way to about 70' (visible is about 25') in a 2500 seat theatre, so quite huge. I wish I had two when I did this, but only had one at the time. Do to how the air in the theatre moved/s, I had to sit the X-310 center stage. You can see it in the shots, particularly the last one sitting upstage center. I taped the LEDs like you said, and can also tell you that running for 3 days, about 8 hours the first, 12 the second, and then 12 again on the third at 10%, it used maybe half a tank of juice. At 50%, it is basically pumping out at 100%.

Now I am looking at getting a HZ-500. Reason being, a hazer still makes a nicer haze then a fazer, which basically makes haze by spitting out low levels of fog. A hazer also pumps out more haze then a fogger can. You turn a fogger up, it becomes a fogger. The hazer also has no warm up time and less power draw. The other issue is, a fazer doing haze, it looks like fog on stage. Out in the audience, it looks like haze. I have had that complaint a few times, and have to remind talent that it looks like soup on stage, but great for the audience's point of view.

Also note that the Antari hazers can use water based or oil based. It is not the same water based as used in the Fazer/foggers, but water based non-the-less. For larger spaces, oil is the way to go do to longer hang time and finer particles. If you have ever seen a show in an arena with haze, those are oil based hazers. Water based I plan on using for smaller spaces.

I'm not opposed to having 2 machines in the long run. Short term, an all-in-one or just the hazer is fine. As I've mentioned, the producer hsa a decent pro fog machine that I'll be adding into my MyDMX universe closer to show time.

It sounds like the X-310's would more than do the job. You bring up a good point though about the stage appearance. The "actors" or "cast", or rather, specifically "shadowcast" are not my main concern. The main concern is that I'm going to be shooting a BluRay on a 6500 Lumens projector THROUGH the fog and haze and shadowcast.

That being said, now I'm looking at the HZ-300, mainly due to pricing. Since it is compatible with a water-based solution(Antari HZL-1W), it meets my requirements for a water-based option.

I haven't ruled out the X-310 yet, but I have to think about that video being projected through. The audience is there for both the film AND the shadowcast performance in front of the screen.

Two things, and Elation, please take this with constructive criticism:
The manuals for many of your products I am looking at are not complete. The specifications are largely absent. For example, the X-310II manual does NOT mention the wattage draw the unit requires, but the web site does. Now, looking at the HZ300, I don't see specs in the manual and nothing super usable via the web site as far as wattage draw.

If the best option for me long term is owning a dedicated fog machine AND a dedicated hazer, then I need to think accordingly and budget accordingly. As a production company, I rarely use fog as it is anyways, so I'm not likely to grab the hazer all the time either. Considering this shadowcast thing is going to be a monthly event, with possibly some touring options and extended runs, the investments into dedicated fogger and hazer should be smart purchases.

Now I'm off to scour the Elation site and see if ground fog and snow machines are affordable. I may have to go with ADJ options, due to pricing. I can head on back to that board to ask those questions if need be.

Mainly: how long does it take ground fog to go away in general, and duty cycle times for snow machines. I know I don't need the snow machine for more than 7 minutes, and I don't think I need snow for the entire 7 minutes either. But I have to re-watch that movie again to get approximate timings. I'm already doing my lighting show to it.

Snow machines are basically a glorified soap blower. As such, they go until they run out of fluid. No warm cycle either. They are very loud though, so keep that in mind. They tend to sound like a leaf blower. The S-200 is a 'silent' snow machine. It has the same size blower as the S-100 II, but costs more do to the silent part.

As for power draw on the hazers, its next to nothing since they are just a small air compressor, a fan, and a pump. They draw a few amps at most.

Antari hazer power draw info
HZ300 - 400W
HZ400 - 560W
HZ500 - 400W

i forgot to post about your ground fog.

Typically what you need to do is cool down fog as quick as possible.
The reason many are so expensive is because they quick cooling airconditioning system in a portable machine.
So all fog can be ground fog.
many people would put dry ice in a foam cooler and blow fog through one end and let the cooled down fog just flow out the other end, but that gets pretty messy and I've heard dry ice can be dangerous to handle.
So the invention of low lying foggers were created.
its a fogger with a big chamber to put standard ice and sodas if you want.

The Ice chills the fog and then you have Low lying fog.
Antari makes a unit called ICE. and its a big enough machine to hold a good amount of ice. ADJ makes a Mr. Kool which works the same but has a really small ice chamber.

Now the problem with using reg fog fluid is that great fog fluid is made with a great hang time. the longer the smoke lasts the better, but in this case you want a quick disapating fog fluid.
The minute the fog starts to warm up and want to rise, it disapears. So you can imagine you will be going through fog fluid really quick.

Hope this helps... i'm really not sure of any other machines out there other than Antari ICE and AMDJ Mr. Kool

OK, lots to take into consideration.

Snow machine: I had some experience with those at my Disneyland trip in 2006. The effect was convincing but immediately I could tell they were just miniature soap bubbles. I guess since the shot them off after the fireworks show, this was the first level of park cleaning: The big firework show, soap it up, close the park and push the guests out and then hose down Disneyland!

(Please don't ask about my 3-year old peeing on all the rides during my recent trip, but it makes me look at Disneyland from a whole new perspective. I hope they do in fact hose down the whole park daily!)

I was hoping for something more "realistic".
I have to hope this won't make the stage too slick, but it would be used towards the end, which is going to get messy when the character the snow is for is killed, and then without changing the scene, one of the leads is also killed, and then another lead dies

Noise is a concern. As I will try to hide this above the stage in the gap between the screen and the ceiling tiles, I might be able to get away with the noise. In addition, the soundtrack is quite loud during these portion.

400 watts for a HZ-300 I can swing. Even the higher numbers on the HZ-400 are acceptable.

Ground fog: I get what you're saying. Depending on where they want the ground fog to be, I could simply let it do it's thing and not worry about how long it takes to go away. I'm not dealing with dry ice due to handling concerns and costs, but mainly handling concerns. I think the ground fog only needs to be used in the beginning anyways.

Hazer the whole time, ground fog at beginning, fog storm in the middle(very brief), snow at the end.

I guess all I'm missing is a bubble machine, and there's no stripper scene so I don't see the production needing one of those!

it sounds like you have a good grasp of what your dealing with.

Oh, forgot about the ground fog myself as well. Sorry.

I have two different types of ground fog units, an Antari ICE-101 and an Aquafogger 3300. Now, speaking from experience, the only way you are going to get real low-lying fog is via dry ice. Fog chillers aren't nearly as good. The ICE-101 is a fogger with a chiller. The fog sticks to the ground, but as soon as someone or something moves through it or the wind blows, it turns into fog, meaning it raises up and stops hugging the ground. The Aquafogger also covers a much, much larger area and spits a lot more.

The Aquafogger is a full blown dry ice monster of a machine. It holds 28 gallons of water and 75 pounds of dry with two 1650w heaters, a fan, and a pump (it actually has 4 IEC's that go into it, a 20 amp for each heater, 5 amp for fan, and 5 amp for pump). You can then attach drier hose to it to get the fog to where you want it. With the heaters and that big a holder, they can spit low lying fog for about 10-15 minutes straight before it needs to re-heat. Anyway, these produce true, low-lying fog. The wind can blow, people walk through it, and/or objects move through it and it stays on the ground. Also, when it dissipates, it turns into nothing, not fog like the chilled fog does or as it warms I should say.

Now, dry ice. It isn't actually that bad to handle nor is it that hard to get. A lot of party stores have it and you can get it elsewhere, like food packaging plants for example. Handling it, you simply need to wear gloves is all. To store it, you need a high tech device like this. Keeping it in a cooler, it will last for a few days or so, longer if kept in a freezer. Its not terribly expensive either. You can get it in blocks or little chips. Blocks last longer, but are more of a pain to handle.

Now, is dry ice more of a pain then chilled fog? Yes, more gear, and more equipment. Also need to get the dry ice and store it. While storing it as well, you need to make sure people don't play with it, because it can and will burn if you handle it with bare hands. However, if you want true, low-lying fog, there is simply no substitute for dry ice that I have seen yet.

Wow, that's gonna a be WAY over kill for this production. I see where you're coming from though. In this case, your experience is helpful, but I know for a fact there is just no way I can afford this unit, much less power it!

The budget on this show is "whatever I can spare", and I've gotten word that I can give up the lighting search. Thanks for the advise though, I'm applying it towards a future purchase as I need stuff like that anyways.

4 IEC's? Crap. That's a lot. Seems like a 30-amp twistlock would have been a nicer way to go as far as ease of connectivity or maybe a 220 circuit.

I am going through my typical stuff right now: Do I buy the higher end item at greater cost up front, or do I go low-end and possibly have to replace it with the higher end product anyways. I have to weight this against the application. Nobody has asked me for a fog machine since I bought and used the Fog Storm 700 in 2002, and my first experience was a defective unit spitting burning-smelling fog. No worries, ADJ has replaced it under warranty, but I haven't even opened the replacement. I had to buy a second Fog Storm 700 because of another job, and then they flaked on me. While my first experience was negative, I just don't have the demand for it. Nobody has asked for ground fog, bubbles, snow or haze either.

The snow I am working on now has need for haze, fog, snow and ground fog. But, with very limited requirements(short times for all but the hazer), it doesn't exactly make sense just yet to buy big. I'm only getting the hazer NOT for the lighting look, but because it will give the shadowcast a "shot on film" look, which is what we, the production team/sponsors, are looking for.

I can get dry ice locally and cheap, but I don't want to fuss with it. I hear your argument for it, and it makes sense. My argument is "I need it for a short time and then it can go away. Movement messing it up might be a desired effect in this case".

Right now, I'm eyeing the HZ-300 for my hazer as I think that is the only logical solution that I can afford, will give the desired effect, works with water-based fluid and still have some funding left over. I'm debating an AMDJ Mr. Kool for ground fog due to pricing. Likewise, the AMDJ Snow Flurry for snow for price reasons.

I think the Ice-101 is too expensive for what I would need it for, but it's hard to ignore stuff with DMX. A Mr. Kool is so much cheaper and I can get a stage hand to run it for nothing. The only problem I have is with the "prime the area", as I may have to have an endless scene run for a length of time to fill up the area, then kick into the show sequences with MyDMX. I will have a MIDI controller for over-ride purposes.

I can get the Snow Flurry for way cheap, but again, I lack the DMX.

But now I'm way, way WAY over budget.

This is a problem I will have to deal with. I want the control, but I don't have the money. Well, that really depends on the dealer I will be buying from, how much can he help me out.

So, opinion, would my best bet be running the HZ-300, Ice-101 and the S-100II as these solutions? Again, outside the hazer, I only need these effects for 1-off uses per show(even including the producer's fogger), and I am trying to conserve power whenever possible by removing what doesn't need to be running.

The advise I'm getting is fantastic. Too bad I don't have a thick wallet. We'll see what I can do. I typically err on the side of better gear. This shadowcast thing is a big gamble and it's going to take me a while to recoup what I put into this, so I also have to thing about needs outside this shadowcast thing, which as I may have mentioned, would be monthly at best.

I hear ya on the overkill front. The reason I even have the Aquafogger is because I do stuff in which I need low-lying fog for long periods of time and it needs to stay that way for some theatre stuff I do. It is the extreme end of the spectrum with regards to low-lying foggers. They do make a 220v version, but 120v is easier for me since sometimes I don't have the ability to tap and get 208. Thus ,I have the 120v version.

Only reason I bring up dry ice is because some people get fog chillers thinking they will do what dry ice does and it simply doesn't. I have the Ice-101 for smaller stuff and more power limited situations. I use it less then the Aquafogger however. Likewise, the Aquafogger isn't the only dry ice machine on the planet either (Peasouper comes to mind). I have also seen quite a few home grown things as well that use dry ice.

With regards to control, I haven't used DMX on a snow machine. I just normally set the output and have someone plug it in when its time. Likewise, DMX on a hazer is a little over kill since that is generally a set and forget item. The Ice-101 has DMX control built into it as well as the remote, so its pick your poison there.

Since you already have a couple of foggers, I think you are on the right track with going for a hazer instead. Let the foggers fog and the hazers haze. The Fazer is nice that it can kind of do both, but it doesn't haze as well as a hazer and simply never well do to design differences in hazers and foggers. If you didn't have a some foggers, then I would recommend the Fazer since it can do both and would be more useful and cheaper then buying a fogger and hazer at the same time.

So the HZ-300 seems the way to go for the hazer front. Now, the fog chiller and snow machine, that is going to have to weighed out by you. Some other factors, the Antari stuff is more powerful and can hold more fluid. However, do to them being more powerful, they use more power and are also physically larger in size then their AMDJ little brothers. They cost more as well. Those are the main weighing points.

Well, I'm in the decision making process but not the buying process.

After some discussion you may have read on the ADJ forum, the product support manager said I should choose the Ice-101 for ground fog due to how he described behaviors of the Mr. Kool. But that's the sort of stuff I neede to hear. If I choose to save money on that route, I'm going to shoot myself in the foot. So, the Ice-101 looks like the choice to go with.

I agree that DMX on a hazer can be seen as an over-kill element. I also agree on the "set and forget" mentality with hazers as well. But, I'm a control freak or at least want the illussion I have some sort of control. I think the higher output capacity of the HZ-300 is the better choice for me due to budget. I am in total agreement with specialized machines. I can always get a combination machine if a real need arises.

So, now it's down to the snow machine. My main concern is people not being at the posts when needed(a frequent issue I have) and would prefer a more hands-free approach. This makes the S-100 a choice over the ADJ Snow Flurry. I can trigger it when necessary and not worry about it.

We'll just have to practice some things. We go with ground fogger, then out for like 35 minutes. Then the fog effect, which is used less than a minute, then off for at least 25 minutes. Then the final scene which uses snow, and maybe we want ground fog again(I doubt re-using ground fog) Warm-up times are clearly not an issue. But I may want to keep the fogger around for another scene. Even so, there's plenty of time to change power.

So, 2 out of 3 are decided thanks to all the help so far. The third one is a bit much, but I'll just think and think and wait and see what I can afford to do.

Then, when that's all done, I'll go buy myself a real fog machine!

Adding to some additional advise given to me outside this forum, I've ordered a HZ-300 and the ICE-101. I've been told "snow ain't my problem".

So, those two items are ordered and should be in my possession by Friday(December 4th). Check was mailed out after Thanksgiving.

I'm sure I'll be back for more. It sounds like I'm going to end up being the "Fog guy" around here. I do need a dedicated fog machine, and that fazer looked nice too.

Again, what have I gotten myself into...